To me it comes down to this. If you have 1 game to win, and Jordan and LeBron are playing against one another, each with 4 random teammates that are equally talented, there is no way on God's green earth Lebron's team is beating Jordan's team.
Most importantly, Lebron is and always will be a little bitch. The GOAT can be a psychopathic asshole, but he can’t be a little bitch. (He also can’t have 6 finals loses, or have his hand crafted Super Team be run of the Court to his eternal shame)
Also, Jordan was a better player in ways that are not captured by stats. The triangle worked because his ability to make the optimal choice with and without the ball was devastating. This made his teammates so much more dangerous. There was a reason Jordan didn’t throw tantrums to get new teammates to *fit him.* (He also had a gravity that impacted defenses in a way that Lebron does not. And was probably a better defensive player. )
Because like all good uses of vulgarities it cuts straight to the point via shorthand. In heavily masculine places everybody who thrives knows what “little bitch” means and understands why the traits that get you categorized as one are bad.
And you can be an “Alpha” and a little bitch, but the later will take away from the former. Which is the problem Lebron, Durant, etc.. have.
Lebron is viewed as a little bitch (because he is one ⏳).It’s no surprise that one of the major points of gleeful mockery of him was the *emasculating* coded rumor that Delonte West f*cked his mom.)
Ascribing to the whole "beta/alpha" thing aside, how the heck is LeBron a "beta"??? If so, he's the most successful "beta" in the history of mankind.
Also, you don't think Jordan would've left Chicago after all those first round exits and lackluster rosters if he had the ability to do so? We don't know but FA wasn't exactly set up like that back then. He signed an 8-year contract extension in '88 three years before his rookie deal was up.
Nope. It would be a jumbled mess without consensus like with the NFL. The only reason Lebron does not get that much pushback re being #2 is because nobody cares enough to argue over #2.
Let’s put it this way, if Jokic has 6 more years around as good as his last 4 and wins another 3 titles (possible) there will be an argument about whether him or Lebron is better. OTOH, Jokic has no plausible path to Jordan.
I’d wager once Lebron retires his status will decline and he’ll fall closer to that group of players drifting under Jordan.
1) Do not let Nick Wright come on to your podcast to argue this with you. Just don’t. He’s just going to try and browbeat you just to Make A Point and Win The Argument and he’s not going to take any of your points into consideration.
2) Personality is underrated here. Jordan was an assassin. He cared about winning and endorsements and nothing else. Everything that people loved and worshipped about him derived from those two aspects. The spectacle was all on the court and was supplemented by the commercials.
Lebron is not an assassin. He wants to be a player, a GM, pick his coach, pick his team, an activist, a union guy, etc. He lacks Jordan’s focus.
People were visibly *afraid* of Jordan. I don’t feel like I’ve seen that response to LeBron. Respect, but not fear. I frankly think peak Steph inspired more fear.
In the 90s, Jordan’s name was synonymous with greatness, dominance, and godlike abilities. If someone was called “the Jordan of sales” or “the Jordan of hacky sack”, there could be no higher compliment and everyone knew what it meant. Calling someone “the Lebron James of whatever” just doesn’t have the same connotation.
> Michael Jordan would crush in today’s game and I don’t see why we should pretend otherwise
While I'd be interested to see how modern defenses attempted to deal with him and I suspect he'd have to work at least a bit harder just due to improved scheming, this is just obviously true if you watch even 5 minutes of his highlights. He's got multiple highlights taking off from near the free throw line IN TRAFFIC. Calling him "a combo of Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler, but more coordinated and athletic than either" actually undersells it - it's more like a Kawhi-Jimmy hybrid with Anthony Edwards athleticism and Dame's sense of the moment.
For similar reasons, I'm pretty confident both MJ and LeBron would crush 70 years from now unless peak human performance scales much more rapidly than it has historically or the rules are changed - Wilt, Kareem, and Bill Russell would obviously be stars today, as their athleticism would translate.
What, exactly, are supposed to be LeBron's advantages over MJ? He didn't win more. His numbers aren't better. He has fewer accolades (MVP/DPOY/scoring titles). He's not a better defensive player. He's not talked about as reverentially by his peers. He/his team underachieved in more playoff series. He wasn't as reliable down the stretch in the biggest moments. So where's his big edge?
Also, just for the fun... Jordan won the scoring title and was first-team all-defense NINE goddamn times. (Hilariously, this also means there were 4 seasons that he won the scoring title and was first-team all-defense... and didn't win the MVP.) He was on another level.
Played his butt off, both ways, 80 games/year. Lebrons size and quickness should allow him to be a lockdown defense but like most great offensive players these days, he spends time on defense conserving energy.
If LeBron quit basketball to play minor league baseball, people would chastise him to the point he's not even ranked in the top 10. The problem with the people who worship Jordan is that there is no consistency to the arguments for him. If it's about championships and MVPs, Kareem is the clear GOAT with 6 MVPs, 6 NBA championships, and 3 NCAA championships, to name just a few achievements.
People glaze about Jordan's ethereal greatness, declaring him the unimpeachable GOAT, and it's annoying. He benefits from the marketing of multi-billion dollar companies glamorizing his legacy to sell sneakers or underwear.
Maybe he's the best to play the game, but it's something we're allowed to question.
I don't really agree with you here, but I do think it's interesting that my initial thought as "a big difference between them is that LeBron would have been a superstar in his second best sport."
When Jordan took a year off, the Pippin Bulls won 55 games, and a playoff series. When Lebron left the Cavs, they were a lottery team. For this reason, I don’t think simply counting rings is really the pillar it might seem.
If you expand the sample size for those Bulls, it looks different - they were 34-31 without MJ the next year (before he came back midseason) and going nowhere.... and then once he was back they were basically the greatest team of all-time.
I get the idea that LeBron has played on some mediocre teams, and that we should do more than count rings. But LeBron's teams simply underachieved in playoff series more often than MJ's, even relative to their talent/expectations, and that's a big flaw in these debates.
On this, have long wondered if the 2000 blazers didn’t collapse in that game 7 and won the title if that would have impacted Jordan’s legacy much as pippen would have been able to win without Jordan, bit like how Kobe’s was somewhat damaged for a while as shaq won without him and it took Kobe a few more years to win without Shaq
That’s kind of my point, when Lebron managed to win a championship with the Cavs, he had a much worse supporting cast. You can’t totally fault Jordan for having better teammates either but it confounds the rings comparison.
Agreed, things get complicated when you consider the surrounding cast. The Irving Cavs were bottom dwellers until LeBron returned. The Heat should have won three titles in four years, Nowitski or no.
For me, it's all about Jordan's peak where he won three, left basketball to try baseball, and then won three more (yes, I know there was the failed return when he got beat by the Magic in the playoffs). Even when the Rockets won two in a row, we all knew the league was still Jordan's. We essentially had six years of basketball dominance where MJ didn't allow us to question any of it. With LeBron, despite all the success, we've just seen him fail waaaaay too many times even during his highest peaks.
Yet, I would never begrudge anyone (especially a young person who never got to experience Jordan in real time) for saying LeBron is the GOAT. If someone knew nothing about either one and you were presented with both MJ's and LeBron's Basketball Reference page without context, LeBron would be the runaway favourite. But that's not how life works. Maybe it shouldn't count but the fact that Jordan transcended the sport and culture in a way LeBron never has matters... it just does!
I agree - despite splitting hairs elsewhere in this thread in support of Lebron, I ultimately come down on Jordan's side, being old enough to have watched both. Jordan felt inevitable. I sometimes hated him. But you had to respect him. Lebron's championships didn't feel inevitable; he had the talent to have a chance to win and then won some of those chances.
Maybe one piece of it is style of play. When things tighten up, Jordan could do most of it himself. Lebron, making the "right play" and passing to the person with the best open shot, left matters in others people's hands enough that he couldn't will the outcome the way Jordan did.
I think a good way to split the difference (but I know Lebron stans won't like it) is this: Lebron is the greatest regular season player in NBA history, and Jordan is the greatest postseason player in NBA history. I think each of those is a very east case to make.
Or lebron is the best player to play basketball when you look at skillset but greatness (which includes the intangibles) then it’s Jordan, as best isn’t the same as greatest (e.g. KD is a better player than Steph but Steph won before, during and after KD and KD hasn’t yet won without Steph so he’s not greater than Steph)
I don't know if I buy the skillset argument for Lebron as goat. To me, MJ/Lebron/Magic/Bird/Luka/Jokic/Durant/several others are all equally skilled, ten out of ten. What skill is MJ missing that Lebron has? I agree the intangibles elevate Jordan to #1, but if we're looking at skills, that actually hurts Lebron in a way. Not a great free throw shooter, not a great outside shooter for much of his career. And his defense the last 10 years hugely dropped off from the first ten years.
What's the easy case that LBJ is the better regular season player? Even just looking at the regular season, MJ scored more, won more MVPs + a defensive player of the year + many more scoring titles, and has better advanced stats like WS/48 and PER. LeBron had more assists, and maybe was a better playmaker overall, but he also turned the ball over more than MJ and their assist-to-turnover ratios were virtually identical. MJ's teams also won more consistently.
I get what you're saying. I guess to me the easy case is that he did it at a high level in the regular season for 20 years and counting. That's not nothing. But per game, maybe not, and obviously his defense has been subpar for a long time now. Idk haha, I'm a Jordan guy but wanted to throw Lebron a bone! He's had a great career, even as a Jordan guy I have to give him his flowers on that.
I can agree with that. I just don't think you need to put down LeBron to elevate Jordan. Yes, I agree that MJ is the GOAT but LeBron is the clear #2 and there is no shame in that.
That's the thing! People act like Lebron being #2 is a huge insult. Which is why Nick Wright, in his top 50 rankings epic troll, had MJ #3 behind Kareem and Lebron. Honestly, I'm surprised he didn't have MJ behind Giannis! He STILL has Giannis ahead of Jokic - which I'm sorry - to say in 2024 is pretty much insane.
And I LOVE Giannis! But Joker is just better, at least the last few years. If Giannis can take the Bucks to another title, ideally over Joker, then sure, Giannis reclaims the belt. But let's have that happen first.
Maybe this is Hananian autism, but to me prime LeBron pretty clearly delivered more value in 2010 and 2011 than prime Jordan did in 1994 and 1995. Plus, as good as Jordan was during his championship runs, I don’t think anyone thinks he had a team that could have taken more than a game off of the 17 or 18 Warriors even adjusting for era specific factors.
The '18 Warriors went to 7 games against Houston in the conference finals, and likely lose if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt in game 6, or if the Rockets don't literally miss 27 straight threes in G7. But then the Cavs got swept in the finals and the narrative became all about how unbeatable the Warriors were.
By far the best semi-recent comparison for the KD Warriors are the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. An all time great playoff run one season (16-1); with other less dominant playoff runs but the same inevitably.
They were a similarly great team, especially given variance, due more to strategic advantage than talent. This was possible because the 2010s was an era of rapid strategic innovation. Morey was basically the Wilt of GMs. Any mid 90s 5th seed could have walked to a championship playing like those Rockets. I analogize them to Blackberry or Yahoo, or in basketball to the 04 Pistons who were ahead of the game on adapting to the end of illegal defense.
So prime Lebron got punked by JJ Barea? The only way Lebron could have made us forget about 2011 would have been to beat the KD Warriors in 2017 or 2018. A championship against the undisputed greatest team ever would have erased 2011.
And yes that is how bad 2011 was. It was that bad in the moment, and it is that bad thirteen years later. To overcome such a disappointing series would have required beating the greatest team of all time.
As someone who is baseball > basketball, one thing I like about the NBA is the GOAT debate revolves around people who are very much alive. That is healthy. On one hand, Babe Ruth has to be the GOAT because he transformed the sport and was, like Jordan, larger than life. On the other, it would be good to have debates that aren't held such hostage by ancient history. Steroids ruined things a bit because Barry Bonds and A-Rod each would have GOAT arguments otherwise. (They were supremely talented enough to succeed without steroids, if you look at how good they were in their early 20s.) Willie Mays has a Jordan case in baseball even he retired in the 1970s.
Jordan clearly wins, in part, because he was more beloved by the culture, a bigger deal globally, and his game would fit perfectly in the current era, as Ethan points out.
I honestly think Barry Bonds is the GOAT. He's easily and by far the greatest player I've ever seen with my own eyes. I don't care about the roids either. Lot's of people were on the gas. Still no one did what Barry did.
Lebron is 2 miracle non-Lebron shots away from having only 2 titles (Kyrie and Ray Allen). To Ethan's point, this is probably as much about trolls getting a rise out of annoying old people as it is about believing this silly take.
Jordan's titles weren't exactly hanging in the balance in the same way as LeBron's in those instances you cited but Paxon and Kerr hit Finals clinching shots as well.
I couldn't help myself and just watched the last 6 minutes of the 2016 Finals on YouTube. We forget just how tight both teams played, the quality of basketball is downright awful. And after making a go ahead 3 with 5 min left or so, Lebron plays some terrible basketball basically right up to the amazing block on Iggy. And so does Steph! Steph puts up some horrible bricks in the clutch. And that horrible behind the back out of bounds turnover! The Kyrie shot, even with 53 seconds, stands out as the only shot in a sea of bricks and airballs the last few minutes. Lebron even airballs a free throw turnaround jumper over Steph! It's a legendary game, but when people 50 years from now watch it, they'll shred Lebron and Steph the same way the kids today are shredding Jordan and the Jazz.
The whole spectacle of “The Decision” is automatically disqualifying in my opinion.
But that aside, isn’t the real comp Kareem? A guy who won with a bunch of superstar casts and also floundered with subpar ones for lengthy career stretches?
LeBron is still one of the best 15 players in the league in season #21 and age 39. Jordan was a shell of himself at the end. Jordan reached unforeseen levels, but then burned himself out and retired twice.
LeBron = Best career, longevity wise over Jordan and everyone else.
Please ask Nick Wright if LeBron has ever in his career felt “inevitable” like recent Mahomes, Simone, Tiger, prime Djokovic/Federer, Nadal on clay, Usain Bolt in the 100/200, Gretzky and of course Mike.
LeBron has never felt inevitable. Even in the championships he won, the only won that felt inevitable was 2012 and a lot of that had to do with the Thunder being so young. Lebron felt inevitable when he punked the wizards and raptors for all this years, but that was small potatoes.
(Lebron’s greatest quote imo was when the cavs were down in a series against the raptors “I’ve been in tough circumstances before, and this ain’t it.” That was one of the few times LeBron gave off Mike vibes - when he was squaring off against Derozan)
I think LeBron is closer to Peyton Manning/John Elway than Tom Brady/Mahomes. And that’s okay. He will have the greatest career of any player when he retires. But for me, longevity will always matter less than peak performance when the peak meets a minimum threshold (for example, I don’t think Kawhi’s peak performance meets the minimum threshold; he’s in the Bill Walton category for playoff success because of all the injuries year after year).
Nobody is setting LeBron highlights to Gatorade songs. MJ’s shot over Ehlo will be with us much longer than LeBrons drive over Indy in the East Finals. LeBron - who by all measure is a good man, good father, and great businessman - is simply not MJ. He can’t be.
Nobody vaulted Strahan over LT when he got that phantom sack. Nobody jumped Emmitt over several RB once he got the rushing record. LeBron can be the accumulation GOAT but MJ is still the best, most feared player ever.
Good point on Emmitt Smith. People used to argue that he was the greatest. But once you could look up Barry vs Emmitt highlights people got real quiet about that.
When is a nerd going to figure out how to adjust point totals for inflation?
I know in my soul that Jordan will blow out Lebron's numbers in that yet-to-be-devised metric, as well. Methinks that will help get these Jebron-is to shut it, that's seemingly their only argument left.
To me it comes down to this. If you have 1 game to win, and Jordan and LeBron are playing against one another, each with 4 random teammates that are equally talented, there is no way on God's green earth Lebron's team is beating Jordan's team.
Most importantly, Lebron is and always will be a little bitch. The GOAT can be a psychopathic asshole, but he can’t be a little bitch. (He also can’t have 6 finals loses, or have his hand crafted Super Team be run of the Court to his eternal shame)
Also, Jordan was a better player in ways that are not captured by stats. The triangle worked because his ability to make the optimal choice with and without the ball was devastating. This made his teammates so much more dangerous. There was a reason Jordan didn’t throw tantrums to get new teammates to *fit him.* (He also had a gravity that impacted defenses in a way that Lebron does not. And was probably a better defensive player. )
The ‘little bitch’ point is why KD will never be seen as greater than Steph.
How old are we??? Who uses "little bitch" as a point in an argument???
Because like all good uses of vulgarities it cuts straight to the point via shorthand. In heavily masculine places everybody who thrives knows what “little bitch” means and understands why the traits that get you categorized as one are bad.
And you can be an “Alpha” and a little bitch, but the later will take away from the former. Which is the problem Lebron, Durant, etc.. have.
Lebron is viewed as a little bitch (because he is one ⏳).It’s no surprise that one of the major points of gleeful mockery of him was the *emasculating* coded rumor that Delonte West f*cked his mom.)
I think ‘beta male’ is probably better terminology to use here, esp the going to Miami vs building a winner in Cleveland like Jordan did in Chicago
Ascribing to the whole "beta/alpha" thing aside, how the heck is LeBron a "beta"??? If so, he's the most successful "beta" in the history of mankind.
Also, you don't think Jordan would've left Chicago after all those first round exits and lackluster rosters if he had the ability to do so? We don't know but FA wasn't exactly set up like that back then. He signed an 8-year contract extension in '88 three years before his rookie deal was up.
Jordan benefited from being drafted into an organization that was far stronger than what Lebron was drafted into.
Was he? LeBron had far more playoff success in his first six years of the Cavs than MJ's first seven years with the Bulls.
Yet, if Michael Jordan never existed, LeBron would be the GOAT.
Nope. It would be a jumbled mess without consensus like with the NFL. The only reason Lebron does not get that much pushback re being #2 is because nobody cares enough to argue over #2.
Let’s put it this way, if Jokic has 6 more years around as good as his last 4 and wins another 3 titles (possible) there will be an argument about whether him or Lebron is better. OTOH, Jokic has no plausible path to Jordan.
I’d wager once Lebron retires his status will decline and he’ll fall closer to that group of players drifting under Jordan.
Two things.
1) Do not let Nick Wright come on to your podcast to argue this with you. Just don’t. He’s just going to try and browbeat you just to Make A Point and Win The Argument and he’s not going to take any of your points into consideration.
2) Personality is underrated here. Jordan was an assassin. He cared about winning and endorsements and nothing else. Everything that people loved and worshipped about him derived from those two aspects. The spectacle was all on the court and was supplemented by the commercials.
Lebron is not an assassin. He wants to be a player, a GM, pick his coach, pick his team, an activist, a union guy, etc. He lacks Jordan’s focus.
People were visibly *afraid* of Jordan. I don’t feel like I’ve seen that response to LeBron. Respect, but not fear. I frankly think peak Steph inspired more fear.
In the 90s, Jordan’s name was synonymous with greatness, dominance, and godlike abilities. If someone was called “the Jordan of sales” or “the Jordan of hacky sack”, there could be no higher compliment and everyone knew what it meant. Calling someone “the Lebron James of whatever” just doesn’t have the same connotation.
It can even plausibly be an insult…
I like my guy - Brian
Solid Argument.
> Michael Jordan would crush in today’s game and I don’t see why we should pretend otherwise
While I'd be interested to see how modern defenses attempted to deal with him and I suspect he'd have to work at least a bit harder just due to improved scheming, this is just obviously true if you watch even 5 minutes of his highlights. He's got multiple highlights taking off from near the free throw line IN TRAFFIC. Calling him "a combo of Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler, but more coordinated and athletic than either" actually undersells it - it's more like a Kawhi-Jimmy hybrid with Anthony Edwards athleticism and Dame's sense of the moment.
For similar reasons, I'm pretty confident both MJ and LeBron would crush 70 years from now unless peak human performance scales much more rapidly than it has historically or the rules are changed - Wilt, Kareem, and Bill Russell would obviously be stars today, as their athleticism would translate.
What, exactly, are supposed to be LeBron's advantages over MJ? He didn't win more. His numbers aren't better. He has fewer accolades (MVP/DPOY/scoring titles). He's not a better defensive player. He's not talked about as reverentially by his peers. He/his team underachieved in more playoff series. He wasn't as reliable down the stretch in the biggest moments. So where's his big edge?
Also, just for the fun... Jordan won the scoring title and was first-team all-defense NINE goddamn times. (Hilariously, this also means there were 4 seasons that he won the scoring title and was first-team all-defense... and didn't win the MVP.) He was on another level.
If Jordan played in the modern NBA he'd have several seasons where he scored over 40 points per game. Several.
Played his butt off, both ways, 80 games/year. Lebrons size and quickness should allow him to be a lockdown defense but like most great offensive players these days, he spends time on defense conserving energy.
If LeBron quit basketball to play minor league baseball, people would chastise him to the point he's not even ranked in the top 10. The problem with the people who worship Jordan is that there is no consistency to the arguments for him. If it's about championships and MVPs, Kareem is the clear GOAT with 6 MVPs, 6 NBA championships, and 3 NCAA championships, to name just a few achievements.
People glaze about Jordan's ethereal greatness, declaring him the unimpeachable GOAT, and it's annoying. He benefits from the marketing of multi-billion dollar companies glamorizing his legacy to sell sneakers or underwear.
Maybe he's the best to play the game, but it's something we're allowed to question.
I don't really agree with you here, but I do think it's interesting that my initial thought as "a big difference between them is that LeBron would have been a superstar in his second best sport."
When Jordan took a year off, the Pippin Bulls won 55 games, and a playoff series. When Lebron left the Cavs, they were a lottery team. For this reason, I don’t think simply counting rings is really the pillar it might seem.
If you expand the sample size for those Bulls, it looks different - they were 34-31 without MJ the next year (before he came back midseason) and going nowhere.... and then once he was back they were basically the greatest team of all-time.
I get the idea that LeBron has played on some mediocre teams, and that we should do more than count rings. But LeBron's teams simply underachieved in playoff series more often than MJ's, even relative to their talent/expectations, and that's a big flaw in these debates.
On this, have long wondered if the 2000 blazers didn’t collapse in that game 7 and won the title if that would have impacted Jordan’s legacy much as pippen would have been able to win without Jordan, bit like how Kobe’s was somewhat damaged for a while as shaq won without him and it took Kobe a few more years to win without Shaq
Yes, but there was no Pippen caliber player or Phil level coach on that Cavs team.
That’s kind of my point, when Lebron managed to win a championship with the Cavs, he had a much worse supporting cast. You can’t totally fault Jordan for having better teammates either but it confounds the rings comparison.
How many of those personnel decisions were at Lebron’s behest?
Agreed, things get complicated when you consider the surrounding cast. The Irving Cavs were bottom dwellers until LeBron returned. The Heat should have won three titles in four years, Nowitski or no.
For me, it's all about Jordan's peak where he won three, left basketball to try baseball, and then won three more (yes, I know there was the failed return when he got beat by the Magic in the playoffs). Even when the Rockets won two in a row, we all knew the league was still Jordan's. We essentially had six years of basketball dominance where MJ didn't allow us to question any of it. With LeBron, despite all the success, we've just seen him fail waaaaay too many times even during his highest peaks.
Yet, I would never begrudge anyone (especially a young person who never got to experience Jordan in real time) for saying LeBron is the GOAT. If someone knew nothing about either one and you were presented with both MJ's and LeBron's Basketball Reference page without context, LeBron would be the runaway favourite. But that's not how life works. Maybe it shouldn't count but the fact that Jordan transcended the sport and culture in a way LeBron never has matters... it just does!
I agree - despite splitting hairs elsewhere in this thread in support of Lebron, I ultimately come down on Jordan's side, being old enough to have watched both. Jordan felt inevitable. I sometimes hated him. But you had to respect him. Lebron's championships didn't feel inevitable; he had the talent to have a chance to win and then won some of those chances.
Maybe one piece of it is style of play. When things tighten up, Jordan could do most of it himself. Lebron, making the "right play" and passing to the person with the best open shot, left matters in others people's hands enough that he couldn't will the outcome the way Jordan did.
I think a good way to split the difference (but I know Lebron stans won't like it) is this: Lebron is the greatest regular season player in NBA history, and Jordan is the greatest postseason player in NBA history. I think each of those is a very east case to make.
Or lebron is the best player to play basketball when you look at skillset but greatness (which includes the intangibles) then it’s Jordan, as best isn’t the same as greatest (e.g. KD is a better player than Steph but Steph won before, during and after KD and KD hasn’t yet won without Steph so he’s not greater than Steph)
I don't know if I buy the skillset argument for Lebron as goat. To me, MJ/Lebron/Magic/Bird/Luka/Jokic/Durant/several others are all equally skilled, ten out of ten. What skill is MJ missing that Lebron has? I agree the intangibles elevate Jordan to #1, but if we're looking at skills, that actually hurts Lebron in a way. Not a great free throw shooter, not a great outside shooter for much of his career. And his defense the last 10 years hugely dropped off from the first ten years.
LeBron has Magic's size and court vision with MJ's athleticism. LeBron essentially has Karl Malone's body with PG skills.
What's the easy case that LBJ is the better regular season player? Even just looking at the regular season, MJ scored more, won more MVPs + a defensive player of the year + many more scoring titles, and has better advanced stats like WS/48 and PER. LeBron had more assists, and maybe was a better playmaker overall, but he also turned the ball over more than MJ and their assist-to-turnover ratios were virtually identical. MJ's teams also won more consistently.
I get what you're saying. I guess to me the easy case is that he did it at a high level in the regular season for 20 years and counting. That's not nothing. But per game, maybe not, and obviously his defense has been subpar for a long time now. Idk haha, I'm a Jordan guy but wanted to throw Lebron a bone! He's had a great career, even as a Jordan guy I have to give him his flowers on that.
I can agree with that. I just don't think you need to put down LeBron to elevate Jordan. Yes, I agree that MJ is the GOAT but LeBron is the clear #2 and there is no shame in that.
That's the thing! People act like Lebron being #2 is a huge insult. Which is why Nick Wright, in his top 50 rankings epic troll, had MJ #3 behind Kareem and Lebron. Honestly, I'm surprised he didn't have MJ behind Giannis! He STILL has Giannis ahead of Jokic - which I'm sorry - to say in 2024 is pretty much insane.
And I LOVE Giannis! But Joker is just better, at least the last few years. If Giannis can take the Bucks to another title, ideally over Joker, then sure, Giannis reclaims the belt. But let's have that happen first.
Maybe this is Hananian autism, but to me prime LeBron pretty clearly delivered more value in 2010 and 2011 than prime Jordan did in 1994 and 1995. Plus, as good as Jordan was during his championship runs, I don’t think anyone thinks he had a team that could have taken more than a game off of the 17 or 18 Warriors even adjusting for era specific factors.
The '18 Warriors went to 7 games against Houston in the conference finals, and likely lose if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt in game 6, or if the Rockets don't literally miss 27 straight threes in G7. But then the Cavs got swept in the finals and the narrative became all about how unbeatable the Warriors were.
An equivalent Jordan opponent would be the 93 Suns plus Hakeem or the 96 Sonics plus David Robinson
By far the best semi-recent comparison for the KD Warriors are the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. An all time great playoff run one season (16-1); with other less dominant playoff runs but the same inevitably.
If the '18 Warriors were such a juggernaut, how did a James Harden team take them to the brink?
They were a similarly great team, especially given variance, due more to strategic advantage than talent. This was possible because the 2010s was an era of rapid strategic innovation. Morey was basically the Wilt of GMs. Any mid 90s 5th seed could have walked to a championship playing like those Rockets. I analogize them to Blackberry or Yahoo, or in basketball to the 04 Pistons who were ahead of the game on adapting to the end of illegal defense.
So prime Lebron got punked by JJ Barea? The only way Lebron could have made us forget about 2011 would have been to beat the KD Warriors in 2017 or 2018. A championship against the undisputed greatest team ever would have erased 2011.
And yes that is how bad 2011 was. It was that bad in the moment, and it is that bad thirteen years later. To overcome such a disappointing series would have required beating the greatest team of all time.
As someone who is baseball > basketball, one thing I like about the NBA is the GOAT debate revolves around people who are very much alive. That is healthy. On one hand, Babe Ruth has to be the GOAT because he transformed the sport and was, like Jordan, larger than life. On the other, it would be good to have debates that aren't held such hostage by ancient history. Steroids ruined things a bit because Barry Bonds and A-Rod each would have GOAT arguments otherwise. (They were supremely talented enough to succeed without steroids, if you look at how good they were in their early 20s.) Willie Mays has a Jordan case in baseball even he retired in the 1970s.
Jordan clearly wins, in part, because he was more beloved by the culture, a bigger deal globally, and his game would fit perfectly in the current era, as Ethan points out.
I honestly think Barry Bonds is the GOAT. He's easily and by far the greatest player I've ever seen with my own eyes. I don't care about the roids either. Lot's of people were on the gas. Still no one did what Barry did.
Lebron is 2 miracle non-Lebron shots away from having only 2 titles (Kyrie and Ray Allen). To Ethan's point, this is probably as much about trolls getting a rise out of annoying old people as it is about believing this silly take.
Ray Allen, yes. Kyrie hit a pull up 3 in rhythm with :53 seconds left.
Jordan's titles weren't exactly hanging in the balance in the same way as LeBron's in those instances you cited but Paxon and Kerr hit Finals clinching shots as well.
I couldn't help myself and just watched the last 6 minutes of the 2016 Finals on YouTube. We forget just how tight both teams played, the quality of basketball is downright awful. And after making a go ahead 3 with 5 min left or so, Lebron plays some terrible basketball basically right up to the amazing block on Iggy. And so does Steph! Steph puts up some horrible bricks in the clutch. And that horrible behind the back out of bounds turnover! The Kyrie shot, even with 53 seconds, stands out as the only shot in a sea of bricks and airballs the last few minutes. Lebron even airballs a free throw turnaround jumper over Steph! It's a legendary game, but when people 50 years from now watch it, they'll shred Lebron and Steph the same way the kids today are shredding Jordan and the Jazz.
The whole spectacle of “The Decision” is automatically disqualifying in my opinion.
But that aside, isn’t the real comp Kareem? A guy who won with a bunch of superstar casts and also floundered with subpar ones for lengthy career stretches?
Nah, people don't like bringing up Kareem because then even the MJ supporters don't have arguments for why their guy is better.
The age old Jordan/LeBron debate has a boring, but accurate answer.
LeBron had the better overall career.
Jordan had the better peak of a career.
The rings comparison is apples:oranges. The Bulls never faced a team remotely as good as the 15-18 Warriors. Especially 17 and 18.
But the whole issue is that LeBron hasn't had a better overall career either. Jordan has a better peak AND better overall
LeBron is still one of the best 15 players in the league in season #21 and age 39. Jordan was a shell of himself at the end. Jordan reached unforeseen levels, but then burned himself out and retired twice.
LeBron = Best career, longevity wise over Jordan and everyone else.
I think what's annoying to me is that the debate somehow ends up minimizing LeBron's career/game. Okay, so he's the second best player to ever live.
Please ask Nick Wright if LeBron has ever in his career felt “inevitable” like recent Mahomes, Simone, Tiger, prime Djokovic/Federer, Nadal on clay, Usain Bolt in the 100/200, Gretzky and of course Mike.
LeBron has never felt inevitable. Even in the championships he won, the only won that felt inevitable was 2012 and a lot of that had to do with the Thunder being so young. Lebron felt inevitable when he punked the wizards and raptors for all this years, but that was small potatoes.
(Lebron’s greatest quote imo was when the cavs were down in a series against the raptors “I’ve been in tough circumstances before, and this ain’t it.” That was one of the few times LeBron gave off Mike vibes - when he was squaring off against Derozan)
I think LeBron is closer to Peyton Manning/John Elway than Tom Brady/Mahomes. And that’s okay. He will have the greatest career of any player when he retires. But for me, longevity will always matter less than peak performance when the peak meets a minimum threshold (for example, I don’t think Kawhi’s peak performance meets the minimum threshold; he’s in the Bill Walton category for playoff success because of all the injuries year after year).
Nobody is setting LeBron highlights to Gatorade songs. MJ’s shot over Ehlo will be with us much longer than LeBrons drive over Indy in the East Finals. LeBron - who by all measure is a good man, good father, and great businessman - is simply not MJ. He can’t be.
Nobody vaulted Strahan over LT when he got that phantom sack. Nobody jumped Emmitt over several RB once he got the rushing record. LeBron can be the accumulation GOAT but MJ is still the best, most feared player ever.
Good point on Emmitt Smith. People used to argue that he was the greatest. But once you could look up Barry vs Emmitt highlights people got real quiet about that.
When is a nerd going to figure out how to adjust point totals for inflation?
I know in my soul that Jordan will blow out Lebron's numbers in that yet-to-be-devised metric, as well. Methinks that will help get these Jebron-is to shut it, that's seemingly their only argument left.