2007 was the last Favre year with the Packers and on one Monday Night they went into overtime in Denver. Tony Kornheiser said something like: "This is the Shakespearian Drama you get with Favre! He will either win the game or lose the game right here!"
I was not a fan of Kobe Bryant. But that's the drama he provided for his legions of fans and haters. After a while I began to respect the balls of it all. This is not the LeBron James experience. If he loses it is someone else's fault. He didn't launch a frontal assault on Jordan's legacy. He wages a cold war. A disinformation campaign. So much of this (excellent) episode was about why we should still care about sports. If the players care more than us we will be satisfied by the circus. If not, the whole thing falls apart.
Re: video games, I think part of the reason adults did not play video games when I was a kid was b/c adults never grew up with video games. My dad was a baseball fan as a kid and remained a baseball fan. But people in my general age range (late Gen X) are the first group of people to grow up playing video games. So it makes sense that adults are now playing video games b/c the people who grew up with them are now in middle age.
Exactly. When I meet up with other Gen X / older Millennial dads these days, I find that quite a lot of us play games. Unfortunately, although I now have the money to be able to buy whatever game I want, I don't have any time anymore! hahahaha.
Love Chuck, but the 2011 NBA Finals are absolutely an on-court failure for LeBron. He had an 8-point finals game! He didn't have a single 25-point game in the whole series. Miami had a 15-point lead in the 4th quarter of game 2 and a 9-point lead in the 4th quarter of game 4 and lost both. Not to mention the general fact that they were just better than Dallas. It's an ugly stain.
Also, not to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seemed like Ethan was trying to say that, even if LeBron hasn't had 1 big Tiger-esque scandal, he's got a bunch of little annoying things that add up (the fake-reading, switching teams so much, asking for trades and 'help' so much, the China stuff, awkwardly proclaiming himself the goat on his own tv show after 3 titles, never doing the dunk contest, his tweet about the cop shooting, his tweets in general...) None of that makes him a monster or anything, but I think the narrative that he's had a perfectly pristine career is pretty hard to accept.
Anyway, great podcast regardless. Loved Chuck's point about Taylor Swift recognizing that the way she's perceived is effectively what she is. I would've gladly listened to you guys discussing that general point for much longer.
could tell the calculus went through Ethan's head whether to correct Chuck and point out that LeBron was in fact bad in those finals or just let it go and not let it get sidetracked from the otherwise mostly accurate point being made.
I just found it funny b/c Chuck for some reason could remember LeBron quitting vs. Boston in 2010, which to me is much less memorable than LeBron flaming out vs. Dallas. I'll never forget him putting up a Harden-esque 8 points that series, being stonewalled by JJ Barea, and Jason Terry talking an insane amount of shit yet somehow backing it all up.
As you can tell from my comment that was a rough time for people who believed in LeBron(this was before LeBron stans existed) and had to deal with obnoxious Kobe stans back in the late aughts/early 2010s 😂
Back to the All-Star Game conversation though: Why don't guys play hard anymore?
A few reasons, but they're afraid of being embarrassed. There are so many great players in a showcase, what if they get dunked on? What if they get embarrassed? For many it's not worth risking it. This is Bron's legacy.
We watch sports to see people lay it all on the line, not to see them game the system. It would be better for LeBron to have been AWFUL accepting the challenge against the Mavericks than to be "just not great" hoping to overwhelm the Association with superior teammates. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Jordan was cool because he was mission aligned. He wasn't constantly trying to sell me that he was cool like Lebron does. Jordan was cool before he won his first championship and he was cool until he retired. He was the best player in the league on a dynasty that won six championships in eight years and that's why everybody loved him.
Taylor Swift has the biggest tour right now because the distribution of her audience is heavily weighed towards women in their 30's through early 40's. And it's the upper middle class women who were adorkable in the 90s and early 00's who are paying the eye-watering prices to see the Eras tour.
Also the reason that the Beatles couldn't sell out Shea Stadium six nights in a row is because their primary audience was teenagers and young adults. People over the age of 30 didn't listen to the Beatles. Hence the talk about less of a generation gap today.
We also didn’t have the 24/7 coverage on Jordan like we do on LBJ. We probably would have seen Jordan’s flaws easier with that type of coverage and perhaps would have gotten tired of him.
Perhaps the biggest difference between Taylor swifts tour today vs the beatles in the mid sixties is the live sound technology of being able to project a huge live speaker setup
Strauss is one of the only guys that can keep up with him on not only sports but big-picture thinking. Music, probably not. But it's definitely not the embarrassment I feel when listening to Simmons try and keep up with him.
Aaaaand, this gives me the opportunity to link one of my favorite Onion articles ever
Chuck’s only flaw is he doesn’t like soccer, which explains why he missed the obvious “actually lived up to the hype” example of Messi, who was the can’t-miss prospect in the Barça academy who ended up being the greatest player ever.
I second everyone calling for more CK episodes but I assume the issue is just getting him to agree to do more.
A great example of how adult and kid culture is melding together is the manner in which Ethan uses the word "cringe." Ethan is waaay to old for that. Plus, didn't he get a perfect score on his SATs? Why not "cringey" or "cringeworthy?" Ironically, nothing makes me CRINGE more than when adults use "cringe" as an adjective.
Can't wait! Been a fan since Fargo Rock City and have bought every book since. The Ninties was his best in a while, with the last chapter being particularly haunting
Have not even started but I echo the "YES" of the previous commenter. From what I remember of CK's previous appearance on HoS, I was left thinking Ethan didn't really match up with him well in the conversation, I assume the second round will be better.
Seems like when most famous people are asked questions they just hear some kind of cue to say what they want to say. Chuck seems to actually listen and take things pretty literally. So when Ethan goes on his rambles, it creates a disconnect.
I think your first sentence is bang on, and I think that contributes to why he is such a great guest for Simmons. Every single BS episode I listen to with Chuck on, I expect him to either condescend to Simmons, or somehow just roll over him, but he seems to just take Simmons' questions at face value, find what is interesting about them, and go with it.
Klosterman *needs* to be a regular (quarterly?) guest on HoS
I love Chuck so much and how his mind works and Ethan is a better sounding board than Bill. Can actually keep up with Chuck a bit.
2007 was the last Favre year with the Packers and on one Monday Night they went into overtime in Denver. Tony Kornheiser said something like: "This is the Shakespearian Drama you get with Favre! He will either win the game or lose the game right here!"
I was not a fan of Kobe Bryant. But that's the drama he provided for his legions of fans and haters. After a while I began to respect the balls of it all. This is not the LeBron James experience. If he loses it is someone else's fault. He didn't launch a frontal assault on Jordan's legacy. He wages a cold war. A disinformation campaign. So much of this (excellent) episode was about why we should still care about sports. If the players care more than us we will be satisfied by the circus. If not, the whole thing falls apart.
I think there is a lot of overstated Lebron hate in this episode and in these comments, but fundamentally you are on the right track here.
Re: video games, I think part of the reason adults did not play video games when I was a kid was b/c adults never grew up with video games. My dad was a baseball fan as a kid and remained a baseball fan. But people in my general age range (late Gen X) are the first group of people to grow up playing video games. So it makes sense that adults are now playing video games b/c the people who grew up with them are now in middle age.
Exactly. When I meet up with other Gen X / older Millennial dads these days, I find that quite a lot of us play games. Unfortunately, although I now have the money to be able to buy whatever game I want, I don't have any time anymore! hahahaha.
Can't tell you how many dads I ran into earlier in the summer who were talking about setting aside time to play the new Zelda game.
Mmm hmmm... My kids and I were fighting over the Switch all summer haha.
Love Chuck, but the 2011 NBA Finals are absolutely an on-court failure for LeBron. He had an 8-point finals game! He didn't have a single 25-point game in the whole series. Miami had a 15-point lead in the 4th quarter of game 2 and a 9-point lead in the 4th quarter of game 4 and lost both. Not to mention the general fact that they were just better than Dallas. It's an ugly stain.
Also, not to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seemed like Ethan was trying to say that, even if LeBron hasn't had 1 big Tiger-esque scandal, he's got a bunch of little annoying things that add up (the fake-reading, switching teams so much, asking for trades and 'help' so much, the China stuff, awkwardly proclaiming himself the goat on his own tv show after 3 titles, never doing the dunk contest, his tweet about the cop shooting, his tweets in general...) None of that makes him a monster or anything, but I think the narrative that he's had a perfectly pristine career is pretty hard to accept.
Anyway, great podcast regardless. Loved Chuck's point about Taylor Swift recognizing that the way she's perceived is effectively what she is. I would've gladly listened to you guys discussing that general point for much longer.
Lebron in the 2011 finals:
Game 1 (heat win) - his best of the series, but outscored by dirk
Game 2 (Mavs win) - outscored by dirk, more turnovers than assists
Game 3 (heat win) - outscored by dirk, 17 points
Game 4 (mavs win) - outscored by dirk, 8 points
Game 5 (mavs win) - outscored by dirk, 17 points
Game 6 (mavs win) matched dirk for points (21), but as many turnovers as assists.
In general, he saved his worst for the 4th quarter, too.
Did Chuck not watch the 2011 NBA Finals?
could tell the calculus went through Ethan's head whether to correct Chuck and point out that LeBron was in fact bad in those finals or just let it go and not let it get sidetracked from the otherwise mostly accurate point being made.
I just found it funny b/c Chuck for some reason could remember LeBron quitting vs. Boston in 2010, which to me is much less memorable than LeBron flaming out vs. Dallas. I'll never forget him putting up a Harden-esque 8 points that series, being stonewalled by JJ Barea, and Jason Terry talking an insane amount of shit yet somehow backing it all up.
As you can tell from my comment that was a rough time for people who believed in LeBron(this was before LeBron stans existed) and had to deal with obnoxious Kobe stans back in the late aughts/early 2010s 😂
I am not sure he was bad. Just not great. It’s not the same thing, and yes his lack of greatness should be held against him.
Back to the All-Star Game conversation though: Why don't guys play hard anymore?
A few reasons, but they're afraid of being embarrassed. There are so many great players in a showcase, what if they get dunked on? What if they get embarrassed? For many it's not worth risking it. This is Bron's legacy.
We watch sports to see people lay it all on the line, not to see them game the system. It would be better for LeBron to have been AWFUL accepting the challenge against the Mavericks than to be "just not great" hoping to overwhelm the Association with superior teammates. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Yeah - my guess is that he landed on - debating LeBrons 2011 finals is not the point of a conversation with Chuck Klosterman. Which I agree with
Jordan was cool because he was mission aligned. He wasn't constantly trying to sell me that he was cool like Lebron does. Jordan was cool before he won his first championship and he was cool until he retired. He was the best player in the league on a dynasty that won six championships in eight years and that's why everybody loved him.
Taylor Swift has the biggest tour right now because the distribution of her audience is heavily weighed towards women in their 30's through early 40's. And it's the upper middle class women who were adorkable in the 90s and early 00's who are paying the eye-watering prices to see the Eras tour.
Also the reason that the Beatles couldn't sell out Shea Stadium six nights in a row is because their primary audience was teenagers and young adults. People over the age of 30 didn't listen to the Beatles. Hence the talk about less of a generation gap today.
We also didn’t have the 24/7 coverage on Jordan like we do on LBJ. We probably would have seen Jordan’s flaws easier with that type of coverage and perhaps would have gotten tired of him.
No he would've been even more likable.
Perhaps the biggest difference between Taylor swifts tour today vs the beatles in the mid sixties is the live sound technology of being able to project a huge live speaker setup
I love Chuck’s earnest reactions to questions. A true joy
Strauss is one of the only guys that can keep up with him on not only sports but big-picture thinking. Music, probably not. But it's definitely not the embarrassment I feel when listening to Simmons try and keep up with him.
Aaaaand, this gives me the opportunity to link one of my favorite Onion articles ever
https://www.theonion.com/chuck-klosterman-corners-guy-at-party-wearing-dio-shirt-1819575481
Chuck’s only flaw is he doesn’t like soccer, which explains why he missed the obvious “actually lived up to the hype” example of Messi, who was the can’t-miss prospect in the Barça academy who ended up being the greatest player ever.
I second everyone calling for more CK episodes but I assume the issue is just getting him to agree to do more.
YES
Seconded!! YES
“You have to believe when the ball goes through Bill Buckner’s legs--“
YES! A sports reference I recognize. And not only that, but one I remember watching!! I was there, in front of my TV, watching
“--that something catastrophic has happened.”
???
But... something catastrophic DID happen. Ethan, is this guy an unfeeling monster‽
Sports as kayfabe! What an interesting idea! Thanks to you and Chuck for being our preeminent sports philosophers.
A great example of how adult and kid culture is melding together is the manner in which Ethan uses the word "cringe." Ethan is waaay to old for that. Plus, didn't he get a perfect score on his SATs? Why not "cringey" or "cringeworthy?" Ironically, nothing makes me CRINGE more than when adults use "cringe" as an adjective.
Can't wait! Been a fan since Fargo Rock City and have bought every book since. The Ninties was his best in a while, with the last chapter being particularly haunting
Have not even started but I echo the "YES" of the previous commenter. From what I remember of CK's previous appearance on HoS, I was left thinking Ethan didn't really match up with him well in the conversation, I assume the second round will be better.
Seems like when most famous people are asked questions they just hear some kind of cue to say what they want to say. Chuck seems to actually listen and take things pretty literally. So when Ethan goes on his rambles, it creates a disconnect.
Also neither guy is particularly smooth.
I think your first sentence is bang on, and I think that contributes to why he is such a great guest for Simmons. Every single BS episode I listen to with Chuck on, I expect him to either condescend to Simmons, or somehow just roll over him, but he seems to just take Simmons' questions at face value, find what is interesting about them, and go with it.